Curse

XvArchonvX · Feb 24, 2006, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Yes I know...but what I'm saying is, with so many people abusing the B/P build...its only a matter of time before some nerf kicks in. A very effective one would be making Rangers subject to blind like the warriors are.

I doubt there will be any nerfs in Tombs since the low value of almost all greens there is enough to keep farming there from making anyone rich like solo farming in UW used to.

I hope they don't because after spending so much time farming SF, I'm happy to be able to use my ranger to farm.

XvArchonvX · Feb 24, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorfish

The grasps can inflict a Deep Wound condition regardless of primary/secondary professions, and Burning (On Fire) is inflicted via Immolate or Mark of Rodgort + fire dmg, but the other conditions are reserved for Warriors via Fingers of Chaos. You usually don't notice it because your pets are soaking up the conditions for you.

almost forgot about those =P

Anyways, those are conditions that a healer can deal with since they can simply heal through them. Blind, which is only inflicted to warrior secondaries from chaos touch is the one that can really hurt a team since a barrage ranger relies on being able to use barrage to inflict massive dmg. The orders necro also depends on the ranger, so a blind ranger hinders his and the orders' ability to deal dmg...

XvArchonvX · Feb 24, 2006, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by iceypain

Exactly what I was thinking.. why are you guys wasting points in beast mastery!? Dang.
---------------
Marksmanship - 15
Expertise - 13

---------------
Throw Dirt
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot
Barrage
Lightning Reflexes/Spirit
Charm Animal
Comfort Animal
Rebirth
---------------
Easy enough..

More points in beast mastery = more dmg inflicted by pet as well as more health when rezed. This means not only does your pet have better offense, but can also be rezed mid battle (like when you are attacking a single enemy and can afford the recharge on skills) to a larger degree of health and thus serve as a better shield. I keep about 9-10 (I don't remember exactly) att in BM when I B/P, but it's mostly so that my pet will do the dmg.

LokiCai · Feb 24, 2006, 07:05 AM // 07:05

I think in B/P group, the most critical member in the team is the MM. I went out with a few very good MM and we are barely touched by the Grasp. A couple times, the bodies are there but the MM is not using them effectively, so half the time we don't have meat shields so the rangers die quickly. I think that you do need to put some points in BM so the pet can at least hold for a reasonable time and not die so easily. I fully agree with the MM that would rather raising minions out of monsters than out of pers (or even rangers). I have 15 masksman, 11 expertise and 11 BM and almost never run out of energy since most of time we are just spamming the barrage. There are really not much difference between 16 and 15 marksman in dmg anyway.

Kez Taqir · Feb 24, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

I agree that the key to a successful barrage/pet team is the mm. I have been on a number of teams where the mm wasn't raising minions for whatever reason and we were constantly swamped. On the other hand I have been on teams where we have lost either a ranger the order or our monk. Had to be a bit more careful whilst aggroing but other than that no major ill effect.

I like to keep my bm up as high as possible (after marks & exp) as my pet does more damage and blocks better than a minnion. The mm will get it soon enough. The only reason I lower my bm is if I am the one carrying Winnoing.

WasAGuest · Feb 24, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

I'd like to think that the area won't need a nerf. What with pet rangers getting frowned upon by the general populace (not that that really means anything) nearly everywhere but here, I say let the pet rangers actually have a place to enjoy as well!

I also would hope it's not nerfed. It's not as if it's an exploit. Groups are just working together with skills that work well against the foes here. Having come from that disaster AC2, with it's weekly nerfs; I saw an entire comunity get sick of it and leave. I always get nervous when something works for the players (while not exploiting) and seeing the word "nerf" following.
This is not a threat to leave, just a "hope" of not breaking something that does work, ala an un-needed "tweak" --- cough, nerf ---

pkodyssey · Feb 27, 2006, 02:30 PM // 14:30

What is the best bow setup to have?

My current weapon is a Fiery Storm Bow of Enchnating.

1. Should I change the mods?
2. What mods work best with Barrage and Orders.
3. Would a Vampiric string be the best route to take?

Bob Whills · Feb 27, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkodyssey

What is the best bow setup to have?

My current weapon is a Fiery Storm Bow of Enchnating.

1. Should I change the mods?
2. What mods work best with Barrage and Orders.
3. Would a Vampiric string be the best route to take?

Order enchants only effect physical damage so you wouldnt want to use a el string. Vamp is decent and zealous is really nice for the energy. I would probably prefer zealous.

wiz12268 · Feb 27, 2006, 09:07 PM // 21:07

If you are running with no monk, or even a monk that knows what they are doing, then Symbiosis is one that works the best. I always take it and with 6 rangers a MM and an orders we had zero deaths on 3 or 4 straight runs with the same team.

Orders are enchants so for their duration you can get upwards 800 HP, sometimes 950 if you throw one on yourself. At least with mine at 158 per enchant @ 16 BM

Not sure why more people don't take it. I guess because some monks complain it screws up their heal priority, but if they are any good it shouldn't. With symbiosis an order nec can pull give a guy more than enough time to self heal. Gives a guy 300+ HP for extra 5-10 seconds depending on overlap.

But basic bar is

charm
comfort
ungeant
barrage
symbiosis
whirl def or dryders def. I use WD
distract shot
Rez spell or one of a couple special skills if your team is good enough to not need to be saved.

Attributes
16 BM (mask and Sup obviously)
9 Exp
8 WS
9 or 12 Marx depending on armor.

So either 410 (with +30 grip and Sup Vig, w/ 2 superiors in) or +485 (only single Sup rune in). Or anywhere in between depending on runes, vig rune, and grips)

As for the whole pets as meat thing. If you bond them they will never die. (unless MM needs bodies). So while you have guys all over the map you and your pet can hold the "real" aggro. Half the time the melee minions get bunched up and don't do anything but sit in a corner. Especially in close quarters.

Not havng point in BM as a B/Per might seem to make sense. But it is as no brainer as having zero marx on a trapper build. Having mre than 9 in EXP is sort of a waste, so then what? WS? 8 is the break from 6 to 7 on ungeant, then you need to have 10 to get to 8. So you lose 24 points to get an extra pip or 10 extra HPs per cast, not worth it since you shouldn't have to loive and die on those 10 HPs. Marx is OK, but above 12 and you don't get the full dmg calculations.

A good Beast master can solo more area than a solo monk can. But everyone has a cookie cutter build they go with that works for someone rather than experimenting a little bit.

Now then there is a 2 MM group, then the skill set is totally different. IMO orders necs slightly overrated, but if people feel they need them, use something that exploits what they do.

Chaos Eryx · Feb 27, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I use a R/E for Tombs and sometimes a R/Mo

Keep in mind as an Ele secondary you can use conjures to buff damage or as a Mo secondary you can use Judge's Insight to Buff dmg as well especially with a horn bow. Troll should be enough to keep you healed as Minions and pets are taking most of the dmg.

I usually run with maybe 4 points in BM. Why? I want my pet to die, we like to make pet bombs with death nova.

Different things work for different people and flame me now cuz I run 16 in Marks unless I trap or the occasional expiremental build. Better chance of critical hits.....IMHO

This is my build:

Troll
Conjure Flame
Barrage
Savage Shot
Whirling Defense
Charm Animal
Comfort Animal
Rez Sig

As a Mo secondary I run Judges Insight and Rebirth. I will pull WD for FW or HS if others aren't bringing. The fastest I have ever completed ToPK is 39 minutes.Usually average 43-47 or a little longer in a PUG...

Flame Raziak · Feb 27, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos Eryx

As a Mo secondary I run Judges Insight and Rebirth.

Well, if you're using Judge's Insight you will be dealing holy damage which will negate the efect of the Order spells as you need to be dealing physical damage for the Order spells to work.

Mesti Arcanus · Feb 28, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkodyssey

What is the best bow setup to have?

My current weapon is a Fiery Storm Bow of Enchnating.

1. Should I change the mods?
2. What mods work best with Barrage and Orders.
3. Would a Vampiric string be the best route to take?

I use a Zealous Ascalon (Short Bow) of Marksmanship.

The Zealous mod lets me spam Barrage indefinitely against 2+ targets (I've got expertise up to where it only costs 3, so with natural regen, 2 targets is almost enough). Compare to Vamp, which provides +5 damage per shot, but eventually you'll run out of energy. If an aggro goes bad, the extra sustained damage from Barrage can really save the day. But then again, if you find that Orders isn't enough healing, I'd say grab a Vamp (and watch the aggro).

The Marksmanship boost, while it only kicks in 1/5 times, will not only boost the natural damage from your bow, but also the damage from Barrage. It may be a small boost, but it is larger than a Sundering mod would generate.

Chaos Eryx · Feb 28, 2006, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flame Raziak

Well, if you're using Judge's Insight you will be dealing holy damage which will negate the efect of the Order spells as you need to be dealing physical damage for the Order spells to work.

Hmmmm fire damage from Conjure isn't physical and I still see the blue numbers pop up from OotV. Guess I'll have to look next time I use judges to see if it negates it, never thought about it that way. Thanks for the heads up..

Samueldg · Feb 28, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

I play either orders/mm or monk ( mainly because 90% of the pickups of those 3 builds sucks)

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make sure your bow does PEIRCING DAMAGE>>>>

ORDERS ONLY WORKS ON PYSHICAL DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!

nothing sucks more than having some retard bring a preperation and it either screw orders on him or he barrages right after casting the prep and it goes away anywho.. thats a slot you can use for an interrupt..

as a MM .. I WANT your pets to die... I can pop two minions out of your dead pet and give more meat to the monsters...

other MMS please think on this... the job of a MM in this run to to provide a constant wall of meat so that your ranger pals who are killing dont get beat on.. fiends are a RANGED attack and dont aggressively pursue and attack like horrors and minnions SOUL REAPING IS A RQUIRED SKILL!!!

a MM should have
raize minions and horrors ( both are melee and minions may be lvl 13 but thats TWO that have to get killed before that grasp will come for a ranger.) trust me on this... minions is a great butt saver
fiends hang in the back and generally grasps will hit the rangers before the fiend.. ( rangers are blasting them more)

VERITAS SAC!!!!!!! AND BLOOD OF THE MASTER!!!!

without these two skills you are NOT a Minion master.. your a minion wannabe.. take your butt to copperhammer mines and get this is you havent beaten t head.. ( you should have 200 attrib pnts anywho)

be self sustaining as much as possible both the Orders and MM should be Monk secondary so the MM can heal area and clear his sac to keep minions up..
**for orders necros***

Orders nec build ive been using
Order of vamp
Order of pain
breeze
heal area
and yes MENDING with 8 in healing thats 10 pips health regen.. you can sac all day with orders and never need the monk..
bring BR...
your nec will appriciate that if he gets killed and there are bodies about to make minions.. use br after a fight mainly on your monk so you dont have a wait on regen...your job primarily is to keep one if not both orders up constantly.. ( they will overlap on occaison, it makes you the rangers hero when it does)

10 in soul reaping keeps you with plenty ene to spam orders... NEVER NVER NEVER get up in the group.. stay in the back... and stay away from the soul that strips your enchants.. as a group moves forward you should NEVER have anything that could be aggroed around you.. orders effects the party... so you can be on the edge of your aggro bubble to the closest guy and everyone will be getting orders and you will be getting sould reaping from stuff dieing... dont get close.. its not nessessary..

by self healing your monk can concentrate on those being attacked.. your SINGLE monk doesnt need to be dumping ene on keeping you alive when you already have the easiest job...

**** for monks***

yes enchants get stripped by the lil pop up self rezing soul guy.. BUT
having 16 healing prayers and the rest in div favor will make you the god of healing with boon healing

there are THREE primary heals you should be using and EVERYTHING you cast should be 5 ene..

Word of healing for elite
orison of healing
healing touch ( self heal and works on those close to you)
dwyanas Kiss ( major nice when hexed)
boon healing ( all those points in div favor just paid off)
remove hex and purge conditions are also good ideas
lastly rebirth ( DO NOT REZ when in combat.. you are SUPPOSED to be healing.. you cant do that with no ene.. and you cant expect your orders nec to STOP their job to come BR you cause your stupid)

generally speaking I dont have a problem with rangers who dont have troll ungent .. the only time that would be nice is picking off the dryders from the gat in the second area.. but even then once the pop up grasps are dead its not a problem to keep the rangers alive..

troll or not.. your call...

I will confirm throw dirt DOES work and it is effective is ifused as its intended purpose.. to save your butt from a grasp that gets by...
it also works nicely on wurms when they pop up on you..

being a monk secondary is a big help to the party.. on those "oh crap" moments when everything blows up and you get away a res sig is a ONE TIME USE there is no bosses in this whole area ( save the end) and you will not get it recharged ( maybe after the area is cleared and you switch) either way... REBIRTH FTW>>>

if you dont have 16 marks and at LEAST 10 exp your a drain on the party.. you wont be able to spam your main skill ( barrage) as well as the other rangers..

your pet is there to block and die.. beast mastery skills are NOT needed.. and truth be told anytime I see pred season I bail.. it not only heals you but it heals your enemy as well.. counter productive.... they are higher level and take more damage.. the benifit to you is LESS than the benifit to them..
trust the order of the vampire and get a vamp bow you will be surprised at the amount of healing.. IF you have a vamp bow open up another weapon slot if you ONLY have a vamp bow and switch it off when not in combat... I have actually seen people go through the WHOLE thing with a vamp bow.. and yup ive let a guy die who went afk ....

this run is a lot of fun and I do it constantly.. make it as easy as possible and set yourself up for the role you have.. dont try and cover the job of others...

SnipiousMax · Mar 01, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

as a MM .. I WANT your pets to die... I can pop two minions out of your dead pet and give more meat to the monsters...

Pets'll die whether you have 0 or 9 points in BM. And I use a Dire pet, they tend to die even faster... I can also rez my pet in mid battle, so he can die again if MM is running outta bodies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

generally speaking I dont have a problem with rangers who dont have troll ungent .. the only time that would be nice is picking off the dryders from the gat in the second area.. but even then once the pop up grasps are dead its not a problem to keep the rangers alive..

I don't ever take Troll, I don't ever need it, and I think its a very overrated skill to begin with (much like healing breeze). WD and TD are enough to save you (and the helpless mm) if any grasps get through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samueldg

if you dont have 16 marks and at LEAST 10 exp your a drain on the party.. you wont be able to spam your main skill ( barrage) as well as the other rangers..

The difference in damage isn't huge between 16 marks, and say 13 marks. Those points can be used in BM or even WS and not affect how effective you're barrage is. You should have at least 10 (I usually have more) in Expertise. But by no means do you need 16 in Marks.

One of the most overlooked pros of having a pet is disrupting lunge. You'd be suprised how often this skill interrupts damaging attacks you'd normally miss with your more precise interrupt skill (s) (and you should have at least one.) You can spam this skill every five seconds without breaking a sweat while using barrage.

Mesti Arcanus · Mar 01, 2006, 06:43 AM // 06:43

"Those points can be used in BM or even WS and not affect how effective you're barrage is."

Um, Marks is the linked Attribute for Barrage, so it directly affects your Barrage damage. No, you don't need 16 in Marks, but by dropping from 16 to 13, you just decreased your dps by ~10%. However, if you need to drop it for Winnowing, by all means, please do so (it more than compensates).

And for the love of the team, PLEASE double up on spirits. I've lost track of the number of times a team has lost a spirit because someone crashed/dropped. That's a huge hit to team efficiency, and for no good reason (I can afford the slot, so why exactly can't you?)

I run a pretty successful build (barring rampant noobism on my part), and it's got room for personal preferences/flexibility (like all good builds should):

12+4 Marksmanship
9+1 Expertise
9+1 Beast Mastery

Barrage
Throw Dirt
Interrupt (Distracting Shot or Concussion Shot work well)
Charm Animal
Comfort Animal
Resurrection (Rebirth, Sig, etc.)
Spirit Slot (FW, Winnow: like I said, no reason why not to bring it)
Free Slot (I use Call of Protection)

Why CoP in the free slot? Because the MM rarely runs out of bodies to use, and I don't know how many times my pet has been tanking at the front lines after the minions have dropped (and the MM is busy raising new fodder), and the extra damage reduction has been enough to keep him up long enough for us to finish the mob. Sure, if the MM has no bodies to work with, I just let my pet go down. But if there's corpses ripe for abuse, why lose a damage source?

And I choose to eschew my vamp mod for a reason: OotV is MORE than enough healing in normal situations, so the extra sustainability of Barrage is a welcome benefit. I've lost track of the times where I was the last one Barraging because an aggro went bad.

4runner · Mar 02, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

i run

barrage
T/F
distracting
dryders
F/W
rez
comfort
charm

16marks
12exp
7 B/M
9wild

Zealous Eternal of defense & Vampiric Flat bow of shelter

Oh and are Healer brings vigorrous spirit for the rangers, spammable, cover enchant and you should see the +16 popping up across the screen when i TF/barrge Awesome never bring a heal as B/P in tombs you dont need it! Dryders works better than whirling in tombs in my opinon the only draw back is the duration rather short! Pets are meant to die, die not inflict damage, rangers and orders nec are for damage!! Pets Tank!! with MInions!!!!

Mesti Arcanus · Mar 03, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4runner

Pets are meant to die, die not inflict damage, rangers and orders nec are for damage!! Pets Tank!! with MInions!!!!

Tanking and dying are more or less mutually exclusive things. You are NOT tanking well at all if you are dying, and you are not dying if you continue to tank effectively.

I think what you mean to say is that you want your pet to be dying and acting as a buffer. Slight difference, but I think it's an important one to draw. Buffers are meant to run out, stand in the way of the enemy for a bit, and provide the back lines with a short amount of time to slaughter the enemy. Tanking involves sitting in front of the enemy for (effectively) forever, providing the back lines with ample time to take out large swaths of the enemy.

The problem comes from MMs with a large buffer, where people confuse it with tanking. The minions are not tanking, they are dropping like flies individually. But because there are so many, one or two dropping is hardly noticeable, expecially because new ones are constantly being raised, creating a form of regenerative buffer. Compare to a Warrior tank, where one person runs into the fray and draws (and holds) aggro, not dying for as long as is neccessary for the enemy to die.

wiz12268 · Mar 03, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

I really don't think it matters. That run is pretty simple even with newish players that don't know what to do and/or double aggro. The only bottle neck is the last map where there is no escapeablility. That is the only place where a team I have been on actually "failed". Have had a lot of people quit and had to restart, but basically success rate versus true failure rate is extremely high.

So fine tuning something may or may not matter in the grand scheme. MM should never run out of meats to make minions, so having pets die continuosly doesn't really make sense. MM usually runs out of energy or health befre they run out of bodies, unless you have 2 and then it is simply sick to watch, not to mention the lag. You have 20-30 minions and really do not need pets anywas, and for the most part many are trapped and can't engage anyways.

People make more out of that run than there really is to it. If you get past the first stage of the final map it is eay going. Even then you can double aggro and still make it out if you have people rez fallen players fast enough, and the MM doesn't go down.

IMO it is extremely easy for the rewards you get out of it, the only thing is that it consumes quite a bit of time. But as I havementioned in other posts my drops have ben outstanding and I like to do it, so time isn't really a factor to me. But I am also not in it for pure profit, but more for entertainment and time consumption.

SnipiousMax · Mar 03, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

I wonder how the update will affect the B/P teams now...can't stack orders so....